Hi All,
I thought I'd go ahead and jump into the fray here.  Why?  Ah..well, why
not?

Some responses:

> Ok, well,  here's my big gripe...in your previous post you suggest that
> it does no harm for babies to sleep through the night and here you're
> saying that babies need to take a bottle every day so they don't forget
> how.  Well, if you have a two week old nursing every three hours between
> 7 am and 9 pm you only have a baby nursing 4-5 times/day.  Subtract from
> that this bottle that you recommend these babies need to make sure they
> don't forget how to take a bottle, and you've got a baby who's nursing
> only 3-4 times/day!  That is not frequent enough by a longshot.

I don't think that Dr. Karp is saying that sleeping through the night is a
10 hours stretch.  If he did say that, and expected us to believe that this
was a healthy and realistic expectation for a newborn then we would need to
discuss the situation.  But I don't think that is the case here.  For an
infant, sleeping through the night can be as long as 5-6 hours (even 7 in
more unusual cases - but they do happen!).   Thus, the baby would nurse more
than 5-6 times in a 24 hour period.   And we must remember that every 3
hours is a guideline - a minimum avg. in order to make sure the baby gets in
the avg guideline of 8 feeds in 24 hours.  The fact of the matter is that
every baby is different and some nurse more often than every 3 hours and
some less and some do a wacky combination of long time periods between feeds
followed by marathon cluster feeds.

Re: the  bottle:  Some people believe that it is a good thing, others don't.
The bottom line is that if mom needs a break - for whatever her reason -
then she needs a break.  Our job is to be realistic in what the mother
wants/needs to do to meet her and her baby's needs.  If baby is going into
daycare at 6 wks of age, then maybe it isn't a bad idea to have baby
familiar with
another feeding method.  Yes - the risk of nipple preference is there -
regardless of the age of the baby or the number of times an alternate
feeding method has been initiated or even the alternate feeding method
itself, for
that matter.  But this is a risk that sometimes is unavoidable.  We all have
different experiences with different babies and how introducing a bottle
does or does not affect them.  Many of us have NEVER come across a baby
who responded horridly with one bottle - some of us have.   Some of us have
NEVER come across a baby who completely refused bottles (or paci's) of any
kind regardles of how hungry they were - some of us have.  There are so many
different experiences out there that none of us have had the same one...

> Many breastfed babies who are separated from mom during the day are able
> to get by without taking a bottle.  Depending on the age of the baby at
> separation and length of separation, babies are often willing and able to
> wait for mom and make up for the time away later--of course then they
> *must* nurse at night.

Yes, this is true - I have a client in this same situation - However, this
is
not neccessarily the norm for all babies.  When the baby does not reverse
cycle his
feedings, then the baby must be fed somehow.  We would all agree with that.
How mom and dad choose to feed the baby is their decision - and no matter
what option they choose it can affect the breastfeeding - that is just the
risk one has to take when mom cannot be there to BF.  The bottle is not an
enemy that must be avoided at all costs - it is simply another method of
feeding a baby - one that, were it not for our sociey's issues - would only
be needed in rare situations.  But, it is a viable and effective method of
feeding - one that ultimately allows babies to continue to live on mother's
milk for much longer when mom must go back to work.  Even with the risk of
baby preferring the bottle over the breast - at least the baby is getting
mother's milk.  For me, that is the bottom line.  Yes, I would prefer that
NO nipple preference ever occur - but that is only a dream...

> Two weeks is too early to introduce a bottle for the vast majority of
> babies.  I feel that even 3 weeks is pushing it.

Agreed for the most part - however there is one important thing I want to
point out:  Your
comment:  "I feel..."  This is a personal opinion - one shared by many and
understandably so.  However, again we must look at fact and the reality of
our society.  There are situations where another feeding method MUST be
introduced for a variety of reasons.  I believe that Dr. Karp (please
correct me if I am wrong here, Dr Karp because I haven't yet read the book
but am LOVING the discussion!) is attempting to minimize struggles of
parents who must go back to work or for the mom who needs to have a break on
occasion or on a regular basis.  I don't believe that he would tell a mother
she MUST give
bottles if she were going to be around all the time and had no need or
desire to
introduce bottles.  We all agree that if possible, wait
as long as possible to introduce a bottle - but the simple fact is that if
mom is going back to work at 6 wks - the worst thing to do (imo) is to not
offer this alternate feeding method until the week before.  The baby (in
many cases) will not be happy and may refuse, giving mom no end of worry as
to whether or not baby will eat while she is gone.  This is a sticky and
sensitive situation...to say the least.

>Nipple confusion doesn't only present itself as a refusal of the breast. It
also
> manifests itself as poor latch and fussy nursing behavior (waiting for the
MER, etc).

Agreed.

Dr. Karp writes:
> It's a parent's choice.  But, moms who are driving INTO stop signs
> instead of just halting at them, or are just plain exhausted, should be
> given the tools to help them get more sleep.

The response:
>I'm just flabbergasted by this statement.  You say, of course a mother
>always has the choice of nursing her baby through the night, but go on to
>make it sound like she'll be so incredibly sleep deprived as to be a
>menace to society?  I hope that mothers you come in contact with don't
>infer your clear disapproval of night nursing.

Hold on - I read no inference of disapproval of any kind re: night nursing.
Dr Karp is offering tools for survival - period end of statement.  The fact
is that moms can get so sleep deprived that they can be a menace to society
and to themselves.  Heck, I have been one of them!  I would have LOVED it if
my 2nd baby had taken a bottle so I could get some sleep - but after getting
him back to breast (after 2 months of hell) he flat out REFUSED - no bottle
no paci.  There were many times I should not have been on the road but had
to be.  Dangerous, to say the least, for everyone.  The bottom line is that
moms need to be able to get sleep.  Moms have the right to get as much
information they can and the
 right to have any and every tool offered to them (Informed
choice) to keep them and their babies/families safe.  Not every mom can
sleep during the day - Not every mom is able
to sleep and nurse at the same time at night (or day).  We MUST be able to
offer women alternatives
in order to facilitate their BF for as long as THEY want to in the manner
THEY want to.  I agree with Dr. Karp on this one.  It is our job to
educate...and the mom's job to choose what works best for her.

>In my experience in helping mothers, I've *never* met a baby who nursed 4
times an hour
>through the night.

Come meet baby #2 - now 8.  Then you can change that statement.  In fact,
come meet baby #3 who also did that for about a 3 month time period from age
9-12 months when his front top teeth hurt so badly from lack of enamel that
he was in
terrible pain and nursed for comfort...talk about sleep deprivation...oy.

>Yes, some babies nurse very frequently, but even these seem to be the
exception rather than the rule.

There are no hard and fast 'rules' here.  We have a range of normal
behavior - there has to be someone at the top and someone at the bottom.
Each child's behavior is normal for that child...I see babies with all sorts
of BF patterns.  I frequenlty see the babies you see as exceptions.

> Again, look at McKenna's research.  He discusses how the sleep cycles of
mom-baby duos
>are in sync during the night, thus minimizing any exhaustion on the part of
the mother.

Granted - when everything is going well...but what about when it is not.
What
about a baby who needs to nurse in a specific position.  What about...what
about...how many different scenarios can we throw in here?  Some moms do NOT
have the luxury of being able to BF in bed or sleep while BF.  It just isn't
always that easy.  We have to look at what is ideal and then do a reality
check and realize that our ideal is not always reality.  We MUST be able to
offer a mom alternatives to meet her situation and help make it possible for
her
to BF under her terms.  Our realtiy is not always everyone elses...we must
meet her on her ground - not ours.

>And frankly, nursing during the day to "make up for" not nursing during
>the night doesn't always cut it.

Agreed - for the most part.  However - there is (within our range of normal
behavior) the baby who does - on his own - sleep 8-10 hours at night and
nurses like crazy during the day.  I don't believe that we should 'expect'
any or all babies to do this - but if the baby does it on his
own...well..who cares?  As long as the baby is growing, gaining, healthy,
etc...

There are so many variations of 'Normal' - there are so many people out
there trying to convince moms to NOT BF.  My personal feeling is that, from
reading his posts, Dr. Karp is trying to offer moms alternatives to keep
them BF.  Not all of us may agree with his suggestions or his findings - but
they are his, based on his studies and observations.  Those are valid - just
as ours are.  We are not all working with the same clientele...  When we put
our observations together we can come to a consensus of
things that most of us agree on - things that MAY work for most babies.  But
we must remember the bottom line - it is ALWAYS the mother's choice to do
with her child as she sees fit.  If she is feeling overwhelmed by lack of
sleep and considering weaning and swaddling the baby (a'la Dr Karp) gives
her
one more hour of sleep and keeps her sane and BF then, quite honestly, that
works for me (provided the baby is healthy and eating well).  We are bound
by our ethics to give the mom as much information as we can so
that she can make a choice that works for her and her baby - it may not be
the choice that we would make for our baby - but that is just OK.

Warmly and respectfully,
Jaye
who - even with the boys ages 8 and 5 is still sleep deprived and wishes she
could swaddle her 5 yr old sometimes so he would sleep through the night!

             ***********************************************

To temporarily stop your subscription: set lactnet nomail
To start it again: set lactnet mail (or digest)
To unsubscribe: unsubscribe lactnet
All commands go to [log in to unmask]

The LACTNET mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software together with L-Soft's LSMTP(TM)
mailer for lightning fast mail delivery. For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html